Dan Shiovitz ([info]inkylj) wrote,
@ 2005-11-05 15:55:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:rpgs

Mystery game, part 1
Ok, so as mentioned on the mud, I ran a one-session mystery RPG, based on the principles discussed in this Forge thread.

So, uh, wow. It turns out to be really hard to think of a mystery. I guess this is why mystery authors get paid the big bucks. It's also, as a separate skillset, hard to clue a mystery. This certainly overlaps with general GMing skills to some extent -- knowing when and how much to push or hint to the players.

So, hmm, in terms of plot development, I started off pretty early with wanting to do a locked-room mystery. This is a classic mystery plot and provides plenty of opportunities for deduction. The problem is, it's almost all deduction. This is probably just me being insecure about my GMing skills, but I wasn't sure that a locked-room mystery would provide enough opportunities for me to put the brakes on player deductions if they were going too fast. I realize that's a lame attitude, but my big worry for the game was that it'd be over in an hour and people would feel cheated. Anyway, so after rejecting a pure locked-room mystery, I came onto the idea of a snow-surrounded cabin with some footprints. This limits how many people can come but doesn't require that nobody at all can come, and it leaves a lot of stuff about the exact timing open. I also had this idea about a brother that gets arrested when it was actually the other brother, and that, plus a desire to make it Even More Complicated turned into the murder-disguised-as-suicide-disguised-as-murder which the plot ended up as.

The related good idea to this was to have snow fall partway through the day, erasing the tracks of the guy's arrival, but then someone else fakes his arrival later, confusing the time of death and when alibis are good for and stuff. It's too bad I had to invent the snowshoes thing (which I think is pretty weak -- it seems like something the police might think of) as a way for the guy to get out of the cabin without leaving tracks, but I guess that's life.

Then I just needed someone to have seen him earlier in the day to be able to fix the time of death as earlier than the tracks show, with a reason for that guy not to speak up, and we're in business.

Once the plot was solid, I wrote up a timeline and a personality chart. Normally I am a totally seat-of-the-pants GM, but the essence of mystery solving is to find contradictions and have them be significant, so I wanted to make sure I didn't have too many unintentional ones. I talked [info]katre50 into helping out as an NPC, so having those written up was theoretically helpful there too (in practice, my webserver was broken for much of the game so I'm not sure he got to look at all).

I ran [info]emshort through the plot (with no roleplaying, just her telling me what she does to investigate) and it clocked at 2.5 hours. I figured it was fine. So why did it take 6 hours in actual play? Not that this is necessarily bad -- I mean, it seemed like people were having fun and stuff most of the time. But there were definitely some stretches when people were impatient or bored or not getting to play much, and those are no good. What went wrong?

One major problem, I think, is insufficient hinting. Naturally Holmes notices the most subtle clues since he's got the author on his side:


For the Doctor Watsons of this world, as opposed to the Sherlock Holmeses, success in the province of detective work must be, to a very large extent, the result of luck. Sherlock Holmes can extract a clue from a wisp of straw or a flake of cigar-ash. But Doctor Watson has got to have it taken out for him, and dusted, and exhibited clearly, with a label attached.

The average man is a Doctor Watson. We are wont to scoff in a patronizing manner at that humbler follower of the great investigator, but, as a matter of fact, we should have been just as dull ourselves. We should not have even risen to the modest level of a Scotland Yard bungler. We should simply have hungy around, saying: "My dear Holmes, how—?" and all the rest of it, just as the down-trodden medico did.

For players you really do have to give the clues pretty explicitly and multiple times, and it'll still feel like they're doing hard deduction because it is hard -- look at all the text that doesn't give a clue and compare to the small amount that does. So yeah, I need to get better about that and more willing to give hints, and do it earlier in the session.

The other thing where I clamped down too hard was the theories. I explicitly said "hey, I want theorizing" but in practice people didn't do it, and when they did it often wasn't useful. I think partly this is not knowing how to do it from a player perspective, and partly the usual GM-death-grip where I can't bear to risk the pacing of the game. With the result that I clamp too hard and nobody can figure stuff out and it takes too long.

[info]huskyscotsman pointed out that it's hard for large groups to commit to the decisions -- they'd often mention something, discuss it, talk about pros and cons, and not actually do it. Or they'd do it, but an hour after the subject was raised. This seems sub-optimal, but I'm not quite sure how to fix it. I think the right thing is for the GM to do more to cut off debate and say "ok, right now, what do you do?" but it's hard to know when to do that without, as above, clamping down on things too much.

Also, not as a bad thing but just as an observation, a large part of the enjoyment people in this group (talking about the larger ifMUD roleplaying community here) get from RPGs is acting in-character and doing funny stuff. This, obviously, takes time. More subtly, I think it distracts from the mystery -- people get distracted and go off on tangents instead of doing what you really "should" be doing in a mystery, which is methodically interrogating the NPC and then going on to the next informant. Anyway, since this is something people enjoy, it's not bad. But the moral is that adding an NPC to a mystery can increase the playthrough time of the mystery just as much as adding a plot complication to the mystery itself can.

Another problem with large groups is that it can be hard to keep track of clues. I was giving some clues privately to some people, which probably made it hard for them to enter the group consciousness, but also doing things like two interrogations at once or just engaging in random chit-chat seemed to make it difficult to remember what was going on. This doesn't matter much in my usual games, but in a mystery it actually is important to remember a guy has no alibi for immediately after lunch, but in the morning he was around people the whole time or whatever. I don't know what to do about that. I could keep notes for people, but it seems like this then crosses the line where I am identifying clues for the players, which takes away the fun. Maybe we should try a clue object that people can record things on.

So yeah, overall I thought it went pretty well, but there are a bunch of habits I need to work on -- places where it wouldn't kill me to let the players know something without hassle. Even though working out the mystery is the point here, there'll always be another complication down the line.


And here is the transcript of The Mystery of the Misplaced Boot.

Stanley says, "Now then, hold on a moment, everyone."
Stanley says, "These footprints may be jolly important."
Stanley says, "They indicate the prints of feet."



(Post a new comment)


[info]lpsmith
2005-11-06 04:25 am UTC (link)
First post!

OK, let's see. First off, I thought the plot (as eventually revealed) was great. A great mix of elaborate setups and several people that could have done it but didn't. My only minor quibble is that it turned out to be male-only: having one or two of the females involved might have been nice.

The gradual reveal of "Aha, it was one of these two people, no wait, it was neither" was also terrific, and made it really feel like a classic mystery plot.

About the clues: I think the premise of the Forge post is that you *don't* leave clues for the PCs to find. What you do instead is set up a situation, let the PCs form theories, let *them* determine what the clues would be if their theory was correct, then, if their theory is indeed correct, they find the clue in question (or if the truth is similar enough in the aspect they're testing, they also find the clue).

The GM actually doesn't have a lot of clues in mind beyond the initial setup, you see. He knows what the Case is, and the Result. The players must then invent all the other clues as hypotheticals. If their hypothetical clues fit the GM's Case, then those clues exist and are true; if not, not.


I tried to do some of this at the beginning, and it didn't really work. We found an apparant suicide while playing a murder mystery, so I thought, "Hey, I have a softball theory: it was a murder, not a suicide." I figured we'd find one of my clues and determine it was a murder, and that would sort of set the pace for the rest of things. So I first thought "OK, so what if he was shot from across the room, and then the gun placed in his hands" and looked for the powder burns. But there were indeed powder burns, so he must have been shot from close-up. Then I thought, "Maybe he was shot after he was dead/unconcious" and checked the desk for splattered blood under the corpse. As it turned out, he *was* knocked out before being shot, so since my theory was right, it might have been nice to have there be no blood underneath the body. I think this clue was the reason nobody figured out the paperweight thing. At any rate, then I thought of the "blood behind the pistol's handle in his hand" thing, the theory again being that the gun was placed there after he was shot. But again, there was no blood there. I felt a little weird at this point--like it either really was a suicide, or that something truly complicated had happened when he died. All I had wanted to establish was "it was a murder" and show off a little bit of Holmsian deduction. At this point, I was envisioning a struggle in which the gun had gone off at close quarters, so I looked for the bruising on the fingers. I got a definite maybe on that, too, so I kinda gave up.

I sometimes would forget to announce the theory beforehand, so that didn't help. Like when I was looking for the bruising, I could have said, "If there was a struggle, there will be bruising, but if he shot himself, there won't be, and if the gun was merely placed in his hands, there won't be," and *then* looked. Of course, the clue I had looked for already (blood behind the grip) was supposed to determine whether the gun was placed in his hands after the fact, so at that point if there was no bruising, I think I would have concluded it was a suicide ;-)

Hmm, what other theories did I have that I tried to check? I theorized that the boards would be in the woods, and they were, so that was good. I theorized that he was dead when William came to find him, and started trying to pin down the time of death so I could test that theory, but you basicaly told me "No, you already determined that as much as you can," which meant either he was already dead or William killed him, so that was no help. This was where I was going to try out my entymology skillz, so that was kinda sad, too ;-)

[er, OK, I'm at the comment max. TBC...]

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lpsmith
2005-11-06 04:35 am UTC (link)
The handkerchief clue Gwendolyn got was great, because it determined that the culprit was indeed missing the handkerchief he had burned. I don't remember if we determined who *else* had hankies or was missing one--I guess that could have been more deliberate on our part. "I act dramatic around various people to see if they have a handkerchief" "William, Hypatia, and Chickering all do not have handkerchiefs" (well, role-played out).

The only final oddness was that the boots in Chickering's closet also matched the tracks. I dunno if that was a brain-freeze on your part, or if you wanted to make it more tricky or what, but it made things pretty weird/confusing.

The final confrontation was a total mess, though funny. I knew it was on thin ice when the whole thing suddenly depended on two NPCs (granted, one was katre, but still). It also didn't help that we had no motivation at the time. If there had been lots more time, I think you would have been within your rights to say, "OK, if you confront him now before you know his motivation, you won't get a confession out of him," and made us figure that out, but, enh. It was some sort of hilarious to completely break genre and all jump out and confront him at the same time. The line, "GeorgeChickering starts and, I dunno, grabs a vase and attacks Judith." made me laugh and laugh, because I've been in those GM shoes before myself ;-)

That's about it! I'd be happy to answer other questions, too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-08 01:09 am UTC (link)
We talked about this on the mud some, but just to write some of what we said down and expand on a few things:

I guess the boot thing was just a communication error -- I figured you meant one of Chickering's other boots, not the boots Chickering had hid. Whoops.

Yeah, the ending was kind of non-ideal mystery-wise, but on the other hand, the culprit had been tracked down and the mystery more or less resolved. Possibly it just turned out the genre was more Scooby Doo than Poirot, in which case this was totally normal as a resolution, except that you actually had the right person.

Ok, but that out of the way, on to the real issues. Like I said on the mud, I hadn't reread the mystery thread on the forge in a while, so I didn't remember all the guidelines. I don't think that your characterization of how it's supposed to work is entirely correct, though. Like, my impression of the method expressed there is that the GM makes up a mystery and puts down some facts (phase 1), and then the players form theories based on those (phase 2) and then looks for more facts to prove or disprove those theories (phase 3). What's the difference between a phase-1 fact and a phase-3 fact? Nothing, as far as I can tell, except when they're told to the player.

Phase-3 facts did come up a little, like you point out. The handkerchief thing was a good example, since Duchess came up with the theory "If the guy burned his handkerchief, he won't have another one." It actually happened in a little more detail than that, in fact, since she also (privately) investigated the people's bedrooms and compared their handkerchief material with the scraps she had, and thus isolated it down to a few people, including Chickering.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-08 01:09 am UTC (link)
[..Continued..]

So I'm not sure exactly why we ran into problems with your deductions. I think a couple things were going on:

- Sometimes your theories were just wrong, like the "was he shot from far away? look for powder burns" one. I guess this is to be expected, and correct behavior is what happens, which is we reject the theory and move on.

- Sometimes I think I should have been a little more flexible about the Case. Like, I figured he put the gun in the corpse's hand, made it shoot itself, then let the corpse slump forward onto the desk. So technically speaking, no blood on the hand, yes blood on the desk. In practice, I probably should have just fiddled that detail -- it wasn't really important, and it would have been more fun for you to have the theory be right.

- Sometimes, hmm, it felt like your theory was right, but that you couldn't "realistically" determine things as accurately as you wanted. Like, with the blood/bugs, it felt like getting a couple hour range was about as good as you could get. I'm not sure what the correct GM behavior is here -- whether I should have again compromised "realism" for the sake of fun, or stuck to my guns ("realism" is quoted here since I don't really know the answer, right, but what I said seemed ballpark correct. Also, importantly, I actually mean "realism or narrative structure" or something -- again, this may be me clamping down too hard, but it feels like the time of death is important enough that pinning it down accurately needs to have a particularly good method, or something).

Rereading the forge thread, it's possible it would have helped if I said "hey, no theorizing til we see some more facts". Like, another reason I think I had problems is I was trying to divide my attention between thinking about your stuff and answering other people's searches. If we'd done like the forge thread says and had a fact-finding time and a theorizing time, maybe I would have handled it better.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]lpsmith
2005-11-08 06:48 am UTC (link)
Don't forget that another problem with my theories was that I thought he had fallen from a standing position (where it would be nigh impossible to prop him up and have the gun fired) while you were envisioning him in a chair. That part was a simply failure of communication, though its effects were unfortunate here.

As far as 'Case' flexibility, I think there can be *some* of that, but you don't want to go overboard. There should be a list of basic truths that don't change (like your timeline, say) and then some flexibility beyond that. The handkerchief evidence was a good example--IIRC, it sprung into existence when Duchess searched the fireplace. As far as my own theory, it's kinda 50-50; hard to say, since the standing/sitting issue obscured it.

And that's awesome about her private explorations into that. And, yeah, I *think* for something like this it's probably better if it ends up as public knowledge. But there's something to be said for it being private, too, if only that it cuts down on the commentary. Maybe have the 'spotlight' on one investigation at a time, while others theorize about their own parts? Hmm, that could work. Someone comes up with a theory, then they go test it on one channel while everyone else theorizes about the rest of the case on a different channel, but can watch if they like?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]katre50
2005-11-06 05:32 pm UTC (link)
As far as the bit where it takes a long time for everyone to thrash out ideas and talk them over and decide what to do, that's pretty much exactly why I set up the forum for my Shadowrun game (and why I kept pushing people to use it rather than to ad-lib). I could see it being more difficult to do as a mystery game, since that's not as nicely divided into planning/action as Shadowrun. Also, of course, using the forum loses the ability to do chit-chat and wacky role-playing that we all love. But it's still something to consider.

Speaking as your NPC, I did get to read (well, quickly skim) the character notes, which was good. Of course, I had to keep asking Duchess "Okay, now who is Stanley again?" since I had missed when everyone was making PCs. Also, I had to keep restraining _my_ urge to get in wacky role-playing, since a good NPC is more like furniture than anything else, and I didn't want to accidentally mess something up for you. (Which I did anyway. Sorry!)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]huskyscotsman
2005-11-06 11:50 pm UTC (link)
I had to keep asking Duchess "Okay, now who is Stanley again?"

Yeah, I had the same problem figuring out which NPC was you and which was inky. But I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or a bad thing, since, you know, we were all role-playing and stuff. Not knowing who is playing whom is a weird side-effect of playing RPGs on the MUD, and I usually find that I like it a lot.

In this game, I found myself concentrating more on the role-playing at certain times, since other people were dealing with the mystery stuff, and then later on I toned down the role-playing so that the mystery stuff could progress properly. So my overall sense of involvement was not huge, although it was still really good fun. Hence my feeling that maybe this kind of game is best with fewer players.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]huskyscotsman
2005-11-06 11:52 pm UTC (link)
...or maybe if you have lots of players it's best for some of them to play NPCs. I'd really like to try this out in inky's next session.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-08 01:17 am UTC (link)
Having reread the forge thread, it suggests only three people or so in the group, which probably encourages all the people to balance between role-playing and trying to solve the mystery. I certainly didn't have a problem with the ratio you found -- I hope it was ok for you. I'm definitely planning on having some more folks as NPCs for the next shot, yeah.

(For the record, I think katre was Edmund all the time once he showed up, and I was everybody else.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]duchez
2005-11-06 07:01 pm UTC (link)
I enjoyed the wackiness that the plot involved, because it wasn't a "straightforward" solution. I kept imagining it was a straight murder, like the Speckled Band, or the Red-Headed League. So I completely missed the fact that the NPCs might not be aware of what was going on either.

I noted the problem with big groups - we would say let's do something, but then we would start discussing how to do something, and poof! it's an hour later. In a face-to-face setting, someone would have actually sat down and written the note by that time, so it is in a way, a failing on the medium (playing online) and on our style, where we try to get a consensus first before an action. Where this makes sense in Nobilis or 7th Sea, it doesn't fit when you are investigating clues.

From the GM's perspective, it might (be more work?) have worked if as soon as a person mentioned an action, to follow-up on it. So when we talked about writing a note, to say, "The butler shows up with an ink bottle and a piece of heavy sheet of vellum. "You requested writing supplies?" he asked." If we change our minds, we can RP telling the butler, otherwise, it jars us out of speculating. I think our biggest fault was talking too much on channel and not enough RP-ing.

Gwendolyn was supposed to be coming up with random theories, so I was trying to couch my working-theories in those random ones, but I wasn't sure how to do it without getting on anyone's nerves. I enjoyed asking people for handkerchiefs, however, especially when I narrowed it down to the culprit pretty quickly.

I definitely found myself losing track of information, and recaps weren't always helpful, especially towards the end when the network went kaput and I missed sections. I found the map of the cabin helpful, and I wondered if more objects like that would have been handy - such as an image that showed all 7 tracks of footprints, showing where each one went. But a reliance on that would have been pointless, considering there were problems with the webserver, too.

All in all, good game. Sorry we were so slow.

(Reply to this)


[info]emshort
2005-11-06 09:43 pm UTC (link)
Hm, the link to the transcript doesn't actually link to a transcript.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-07 01:06 am UTC (link)
Yeah, sorry, I should have put a note in -- I figured lpsmith should hold off on putting it up until next week. If folks want to see it now, lemme know and I'll mail a copy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-08 01:25 am UTC (link)
Everyone's comments have been helpful. Here's what I'm thinking about doing for next session:

- Encourage people to not theorize immediately but just collect facts, and then after they have a bunch, encourage them to make some theories and test them. Be explicit about this.

- Be flexible about the Case whenever possible -- change minor details if it makes them in accordance with people's theories.

- Encourage the group to commit to things when it looks like they're spending a lot of time discussing stuff and not going anywhere.

- Add a few more pictures. I made up something for the footprints which might help, and added a detail or two to the cabin interior map. Maybe even more details should be added there.

- Provide some way for people to make notes that is publically available -- maybe just some kind of webpage that people can add text to.

- Get some more people to play NPCs to help run more threads at once. I'm not actually positive this is a good idea -- it might just result in nobody noticing any clues that other people pick up, but hopefully the previous example will help with that some.

- Use multiple channels to handle multiple threads. We often do this, and I should have done it this game -- too confusing to have two or three conversations going on at once in the room. I had the idea, which I can't decide is good or not, to have the channel name be the NPC name. I guess it doesn't matter much.

- Try and give clues a little earlier and more frequently.

Not for next session, since it's just a one-session game, but if this were a multi-session game, it would be cool to use the forum, like [info]katre50 had suggested. People could collect clues each session and act on previous theories, and then between sessions they could come up with new theories to test out.

(Reply to this)


[info]yhlee
2005-11-14 06:32 pm UTC (link)
This sounds so incredibly cool just to read about! That's all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]inkylj
2005-11-14 09:14 pm UTC (link)
I don't know when/if there'll be another, but you're welcome to play -- I'll drop you a line then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…